Taking a close look at doping control in professional tennis. How stringent is it? We also look at other issues related to the integrity of the sport.
@Tehaspe The system is imperfect there is no question— Joe Fleming (@ByJoeFleming) September 9, 2015
@Tehaspe The system is imperfect there is no question
@Tehaspe I don't know enough ... But we ask the questions— Joe Fleming (@ByJoeFleming) September 9, 2015
@Tehaspe I don't know enough ... But we ask the questions
They ask questions? When? Can I see transcripts or watch videos of them asking questions about doping in tennis? If they are asking the U.S. Open officials or tennis officials in general about doping and they aren't given straight answers they should put that in their story/column/op-ed piece. All these journos claim they ask questions about doping but where's the proof?
Some interesting stuff about USADA here http://www.sbnation.com/longform/2015/9/9/9271811/can-boxing-trust-usada
So Mayweather basically has the USADA in his back pocket - covering up his positive tests, allowing him to use illegal IVs, giving him several retroactive TUEs, etc.I wonder how many other athletes have paid off USADA to get rid of their positive test results.
Good find. Interesting story. I just point out this quote from Richard Pound:The primary reason for the apparent lack of success of the testing programs does not lie with the science involved. While there may well be some drugs or combinations of drugs and methods of which the anti-doping community is unaware, the science now available is both robust and reliable. The real problems are the human and political factors. There is no general appetite to undertake the effort and expense of a successful effort to deliver doping-free sport.Pretty much sums up the problems with USADA/WADA.
On a side note, has anyone noticed that they added "distance covered" to the stats of the US Open? http://www.usopen.org/en_US/scores/stats/day16/1504ms.htmlShows some interesting statistics. For instance, Dopovic runs more than 2 miles against Agut (http://www.usopen.org/en_US/scores/stats/day13/1401ms.html). Then still beats Lopez -- while running about 1.5 miles in the match. Does he get a TUE for hemolytic anemia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemolytic_anemia)? It would be interesting to see how he is keeping his red blood cell count up.
The TUE transparency issue drives me crazy. Although I understand the need for medical privacy, there is no reason we should not have a list of what TUEs have been granted for each sport. I think that would tell us an awful lot about what is going on under the skin.
Agree completely with both of you. We absolutely need to know how many athletes get TUEs in each sport and what for. You don't have to name names, just give us a basic list.
2 miles doesn't sound much; but couple that with the fact that most of it is stop start and explosive; and it is a very different story.
Looking through the data, the total time spent on court + miles travelled through 5 matches:Federer (Mayer, Darcis, Kohlschreiber, Isner, Gasquet)Time: 496 minutes (8 hours, 16 minutes)Distance: 4.15 (21936.2 feet)Djokovic (Souza, Haider-Maurer , Seppi, Bautista Agut, Lopez)Time: 652 minutes (10 hours 52 minutes)Distance: 6.99 (36898.1 feet)Wawrinka (Ramos-Vinolas, Chung, Bemelmans, Young, Anderson)Time: 670 minutes (11 hours, 10 minutes)Distance: 6.34 (33453.1 feet)Cilic (Pella, Donskoy, Kukushkin, Chardy, Tsonga)Time: 868 minutes (14 hours, 28 minutes)Distance: 6.81 (35968.6 feet)So, I presume there wasn’t any off day testing.
And Nadal’s data for good time sake (3 rounds):Nadal (Coric, Schwartzman , Fognini)Time: 554 minutes (9 hours, 14 minutes)Distance: 5.83 (30785.8 feet)
They need special stats for Nadal:Time between serves.Distance walked between serves.Wedgies removed per serve.
Good work. I wonder if there's any testing whatsoever at the U.S. Open this year.
I made some basic calculations. If Nadal had played 5 matches instead of 3 his stats would like something like this:Nadal (Coric, Schwartzman , Fognini, Mr X, Mr Y)Time: 923 minutes (15 hours, 23 minutes)Distance: 9.71Quite impressive I must say if you compare him to the guys above.
How can they not have testing at the USO? My guess is that's why Serena lost. Don't tell me Vinci was just playing inspired tennis.
I think Serena lost because she choked under the pressure of trying to win a calendar-year grand slam *and* because Vinci was playing inspired tennis (and a type of tennis that would tend to give Serena trouble).
What, no one watched the ladies semi final? So the calendar year grand-slam has been prevented. I only saw the last couple of games but Vinci played with finesse and not just brute power. She came to the net, volleyed well on critical points.
Vinci beat Williams. I guess it is the end of the world. At least Serena won more points than Vinci.
I didn't watch because I figured Serena winning was a foregone conclusion. When I checked the score I was speechless. I'm stunned Serena lost - biggest upset in tennis in god knows how long.
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I watched the last couple of games and was impressed with Vinci's mix of shots. Well, well, we have an all Italian final. So much for the hype.
The meltdown some are having on social media about Serena losing is quite a sight to see. Apparently people who bought tickets to the women's final before the Open are returning them en masse and tickets for the women's final have gone from $270 to less that $60. Wonder how pissed ESPN, USTA, and tennis bigwigs overall are that Serena lost. People are saying Vinci was super-impressive and played with variety (like mary mentioned above). I might actually have to give this a watch to see how Vinci did it.
Not to worry all, Serena's still the Goat and the best tennis has to offer man or woman according to Johnny mac...this this should if nothing else give you a good laugh.https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/esp-us-open-mcenroe-hails-williams-greatest-time-115142475--ten.html
Can they return tickets? unless those who bought them can prove the tickets were bought for a Serena/Calender slam final they have no grounds to dispute the sale. so guess the USO powers to be will take their money and run. But i can imagine seeing that the final was sold out those who are disappointed with the outcome have flooded the market with unwanted USO final tickets.
Vinci managed to beat Serena like Hingis and Henin used to, with variety and finesse. The younger generations of female players seem completely unable to play this way.
@GMurph - I think they are putting them on ebay, Stubhub, other tickets sites, etc. hoping to recoup their money. @Julien B - Now I have to watch this on replay. Sounds like Vinci played a super-smart match.
Think we're all just still in shock. Didn't think any WTA player could take Serena out @ a Slam without Serena's consent. Vinci is great @ doubles & looks like that really helped her play today! What's very surprising is that u got 2 Italians over 30 year olds in the final. The Italian sports docs must be doing something right!!!
Yeah, "excellent" play. I haven't seen so many lobs put up since the 3.0 womens club finals last year. Good to see the pros lobing like 90 year old women.
Good mini-thread here guys. I'm wondering if serena fans will claim Vinci won by doping! Now that would be the icing on the cake. (They may well be right, ironically - good to see Schiavone encourage 'good tennis' amongst her compatriots since she won the French). A lot less serena hype now thank god, but I'm sure they will be plenty of hype in Italy still.
It'd hardly be a stretch - Vinci was the long term partner of Errani, who of course had Lance Armstrong's dope supplier as her doctor. Now suddenly she makes her first slam title at age 32? OK.
Is this the oldest average age for women's finals in the open era?If not, does it help if we add in doubles?
I watched it. I was absolutely shocked and delighted when Serena lost. IMO, Roberta Vinci should be memorialized for saving tennis the way she did today.
@MTracy -Richard Deitsch from SI just tweeted that it is the oldest combined age for a women's Slam final in the Open era (66 years old). So I'm sure it's probably the oldest average age as well.
Mystery - Apparently tweets are blaming Drake. Make me wonder do the "Fans" actually follow or like Tennis.Pretty unprecedented that two unseeded over 30's can beat the 1 & 2. Maybe the new age of tennis has heralded the "who has the best chemist in their entourage?" question.
Drake may have his issues (who the heck wants to date serena??) - but his fault, her loss, it ain't!
I may not want to marry Serena but i would date her before i date any other player on the tour. not everyone likes them underage
BBC interview with Paula Radcliffe, in which the interviewer (to her credit) pushes the issue. http://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/34195672Deny and obfuscate, deny and obfuscate.............
Hey, Paula Radcliffe's husband says she's innocent so get off her back!In all seriousness though, the louder she cries and protests, the guiltier she comes across.
It is really much funnier than that... " I was EPO urine tested at the time, and also in follow up. All of these three cases followed periods of altitude training."Really? So what "altitude training" is this? Unless you spends weeks at altitude, your body does not have time to adapt. In any case, she then says, "Only one of my blood test scores is marginally above the 1 in 100 accepted threshold, and this is invalid given that it was collected immediately following a half marathon race run around midday in temperatures of approximately 30C."So, was if after altitude training? Or after your race? Or was that you sprinting up Mt. Everest for the Everest Marathon? And how was it 30C on Everest? Did you forget the negative sign?Marking "altitude training" on your doping form has long been known to be a cure all for blood doping. People always wonder "Why don't they ban altitude training?" Well, if they banned it, then the best excuse for wild blood values goes out the window and then you actually have to bust athletes. She even says she is aware of how this scam work: "Furthermore, they were all conducted following prolonged periods of altitude training, which is today recognised as significantly impacting blood figures, and is therefore taken into account when interpreting blood data."Ok, so where are these "recognised" studies? And because you are so transparent, why don't you describe what the "prolonged" training was. Curiously, the "expert" that she cites extensively talks about dehydration but doesn't mention altitude training as responsible for anything. While there is no question that if you spend weeks at altitude, your body will adapt. However, she doesn't offer any information about where she went, how long she stayed there, and why it would lead to such large changes in her blood.
The Djokovic-Cilic match is turning out to be embarrassingly bad. Has Cilic failed another test and got told to lose? He is playing like crap.
Cilic is injured according to Djoker. News to me!
I hope this isn't the type of "injury" that caused him to skip some tournaments some time ago.
He went over his ankle vs Chardy. There were fairly strong rumours he wasn't going to play the QF, then he played and it went 5 - so perhaps not surprising he did some damage.
This match was beyond embarrassing.
@pk I'm with you. I think Cilic and Serena met the same fate.
I didn't see the convicted-doper v the totally-suspected-doper match, but it reads like a snore fest. As for the other semi, it's looking pretty one sided too. I almost wish Federer would continue the fade off that seemed to have set in a few years ago... I know he covers a lot less ground than other top players, but still!
Djokovic-Cilic was awful tennis to watch. Total rout.Wawrinka looks utterly listless out there and making a ton of mistakes. All Federer has to do is keep the ball in play and Wawrinka makes a mistake.Unless Stan mounts some kind of comeback, both men's semis will be an utter bust in terms of quality.
In reality, he defended much better than Wawrinka and won most if not all long intense rallies.It's as if he wouldn't get tired.
The match was only an hour-and-a-half, hardly any time for many long, intense rallies.Neither Djokovic or Federer had to expend much energy in their wins tonight.
Federer moving so well at the age of 34? Agassi was the last player who played well at this age and coincidentally he failed drug tests before.
There were about two long rallies in the match. He won't "move" as well against Djokovic if he can't keep points shorts like he did in Cincinnati.
The match may have been short, but even Wawrinka mentioned in his press conference that Federer is moving better than ever.
Everyone is suspect in tennis of doping IMHO, but some more than others. I consider Djokovic to be doping and I can see why there are some who think Federer dopes (even though I mostly disagree with them). But there is no way in hell you can watch either men's semifinal match tonight and say doping is the reason they won. Djokovic's match was 85 minutes, Federer's was only a hair over 90 minutes. And these are best-of-five matches, not best-of-three. All those two had to do was keep the ball in play because both CIlic and Wawrinka couldn't be bothered to show up to play. Both opponents were utterly terrible tonight.Now when the men's final is on, then we'll be able to see what's truly up.
Djokovic is supposed to move better anyway as he is the younger guy. Testosterone and fast-twitch muscle fibers are decreasing with age unless you receive some "help" which makes u play as gd as/even better than you were.
ShadowSeptember 11, 2015 at 7:22 PMThe match may have been short, but even Wawrinka mentioned in his press conference that Federer is moving better than ever. +++He might have said so, but he helped Federer tremendously by playing very erratic tennis (especially in the 2nd and 3rd sets). The only way Federer beats Djokovic Sunday is if he manages to serve lights out and is able to limit the number of long rallies. Winning the first set is almost crucial for him as well. Very slim margins for him to win, I don't really see the doping angle - if he were outgrinding baseliners and constantly winning three hour matches without breaking a sweat then I would be more convinced.
I am a Federer fan but even I find his statements eye brow raising to say the least. He says he feels young, he can go on for years to come etc. That being said, this is a mug era and while he is ranked #2, he is clearly second best to Djokovic and has won 2 slams in the past 6 years. One must also look at the seeding system and cup cake draws which facilitate deep runs for the top players.
Djokovic is a nervous starter. If Federer can grab an early break and not let it go like in the Wimbledon final, then it boils down to winning 2 of the next 4 sets. Plus he will have plenty of crowd support and Djokovic hates crowds being against him, allowing that to impact his game.
What you guys don't understand is that it is very difficult to play at a fast pace the way federer is doing. Even Agassi at 35 could barely walk. Federer is faster than anyone one the men side at 34 years old. Why he is never fatigued? It is not because someone doesn't beat the number 1 in the world and a potential GOAT that he is not doping. If that were the case, nobody would be considered to be doping. It is like saying anyone who can't beat usain Bolt is not doping. Gatlin run out of gas in 100m and 200m because of Bolt. Does that mean he wasn't doping? When Nadal was being physically outlast by Djokovic, does that mean he wasn't doping? I don't see Serena playing long rallies. Why do people accuse her of doping then? Federer is always fresh regarless of the number of tournaments played during the course of a year and how far he has gone in each tournament. He is always fresh at the end of the year , always fresh for all tournaments, never complained about fatigue and long seasons. There is no guaranty that a younger Federer would have consistently beaten Djokovic in his prime anyway. I mean no one can take a set off of the 34 year-old guy and somehow he is not suspicious because he doesn't play long rallies? None of the Federer contemporaries are anywhere to be seen. Even Ferrer and Nadal can't keep up but Federer seems to be able to play till he decides to retire. He is playing the same way he was playing at 27 when everyone was asking him about his possible retirement. Next year, I have no doubt he would still be the fastest on the court. Someone who in his 20s was having stamina issues and who somehow was able to battle against the all time phenomenons in terms of endurance in the names of Nadal and Djokovic and who has the least amount of injuries than most of the younger guys on the tour. I find it hard to believe. Just too many signs to stay deluded about it.
Thank you Eric Ed for pointing to us what we don't understand. Also, thank you for reminding us correctly, even if we certainly don't remember it that way, that Agassi was barely walking at 35. Thank you for digging deep into your memory for the benefit of this site, and if that's not the case, thank you for going over your collection of VCR tapes. Very useful indeed, and keep up the good work! You do need something to take your thoughts off Serena. Still, what happened to her, since you are such an expert on doping, please help me out here. She grunts a lot, but there is no power in her shots. Where did the strength go?
Federer is a great player to watch and I don't understand why some of you say he is arrogant but it is difficult to neglect that there is something suspicious going on with his play. Especially that he is so consistent and finishes off his matches so damn quick.What could have happened: he was clean until certain point possibly in the end of 2013 but seeing so tireless opponents such as Nadal, Djokovic he decided to do something about it. If they were on something what made them invincible he could try the same medicine. I also suspect that initially he may have taken it only playing against guys who have clear signs of being juiced. But this was not enough as his major issue in 2014 was Djokovic. He lost against him twice in the most desired place – Wimbledon. Now his strategy is to be juiced from the first match to be fresh and ready to defeat Djokovic.I doubt that is true and my story is SF but it is absolutely possible.
My own "theory" such as it is that Federer was untouchable at the top if the game for a very long time. I think he became hooked on the adulation, and acclaim. I believe such things can be addictive. Perhaps he couldn't deal with the potential loss of that, and so has opted to extend his career. He also still desperately wants the Olympic Singles Gold. A year ago I would have said he was clean, now I can't see anyway he can be.
I am still not buying the assertion that age itself is evidence of doping, especially for players under 35. Training methods have improved in such a way that both men and women can optimize their fitness later in life. When combined with the benefits of experience and the support that comes with money, it's not surprising to me that the age of successful competition is rising. I am far more suspicious of players with non-specific cycles of injuries and sudden drastic improvements in skill and stamina that are either unexplained for based on explanations that read like fairy tales. Success at 33 or 34 is not enough.
Re: Olympic Singles Gold.2012 was his best chance. However Del Potro kept him on court for 4 Hours and 30 minutes in the Semi Finals which led to him being crushed by a Murray who did play superbly. Just to put it into perspective the match against Del Potro was longer than the Wimbledon 2009 final against Roddick.But since he was/is desperate for the Singles gold, I wonder why he did not take a shot of EPO or blood dope the night before the final so that he was 100%. Do you think that he was wary of getting caught?
I always believe Wimbledon let Murray dope to win the Olympics and than Wimbledon. Just seeing how they intentionally dispatched karlovic from the competition left no doubt in my mind that they could have let him dope. Also, Federer never lost to Murray in a major competition before that Wimbledon if I remember correctly. So Federer could never have foreseen that type of Murray and would never have needed to do something about it.JMF, I don't know about Serena. I just know she shouldn't have played the 2 tournaments leading to the US Open. That was a major mistake. She seemed exhausted even against Venus and I believe Venus could have won this US Open if if wasn't to avoid messing up the potential calendar slam. She looked extremely fatigued to me. What I think is that it bothers you that people seem to realize that Serena is less likely doping compare to Federer. There was no doubt in my mind that Federer was a doper even since the time he was playing against Roddick. I just didn't talk about it more because he was playing against dopers like Nadal, Djokovic, etc and he is the most skillful tennis has known. His muscle memory, his reflexes, stamina, lack of fatigue, lack of injuries, endless passion and motivation, lack of wear and tear, his robotic stance, his uncharacteristic strength for his body type, the small number of competitions skipped, the small number of matches he quit, his inability to cramp up, very few request for medical assistance with all broken records of the open era, etc. If he had all these qualities naturally, imagine if he was doping. he would already have 30+ slams.
@ UntitledK9I have always though that the men's singles in 2012 at Wimbledon, and the Olympics were probably clean. In the run up to Wimbledon I think players were off the dope in readiness for the Olympics. Nadal didn't turn up for either, (I wonder why?), Djokovic was beaten in the Semi Finals by Federer in the first and Murray in the second, plus Del Potro in the Bronze Medal Match. Federer being exhausted after the Del Potro marathon, and so going down tamely to Murray, was what you might expect. He might well have expected that Murray would have folded in the Gold Medal match - still scarred by what had happened a month earlier. If Federer is doping I think it started after his bad year in 2013. He was showing signs of ageing. Now he is not. He is not just winning, he is going through the opposition as though they were not there. I think today he will take out that highly suspicious superman Djokovic and claim his 18th Slam. As Murray said of him in 2012 after the Wimbledon victory "not bad for an old man". This is now 3 years further on and "the old man" has somehow rediscovered the fountain of eternal youth................
Cynic - that is exactly what Roger might have decided to. In 2013 he was throwing some allegations to tennis authorities. I remember he mentioned that when he was winning tournament after tournament noone had tested him. He was hinting Nadal but all what he could have been done he did. I quite understand if he dopes now because this is the only measure he may take against such characters as Djokovic, Cilic and Nadal. To keep up with the others he must do what the other do.If he didn't dope until 2013 and Joker and Nadal did it would mean that they stripped him from dozen of titles.
who says Federer doesn't get fatigued? Also, the new roof structure on AA Arena has helped Federer because of the accuracy of his shots; without the swirling wind that is usually present and the fact that it plays more like an indoor court he benefits. It's no secret that the court was slowed down drastically which explains why Federer hasn't made a final there in six years. This year things changed. I hope he wins it. I'm sick of Djokovic winning everything. Hey isn't that what they said when Fed was in his prime and winning everything in sight?
An interesting bit of satire (?) from Eurosport on Stan and Rogers Energy drinkhttp://video.eurosport.co.uk/tennis/us-open/2015/sports-invaders-secret-swiss-energy-drink-helps-federer-wawrinka-crack-huge-shots_vid388995/video.shtml
I thought it would be something similar to those Les Guignols skits.
I don't think they'd dare go that far but for brand such as Eurosport put together in jest a short on a magical swiss formula i think is hilarious.
So what happened with Serena? I thought they already had the trophy engraved with her name? Has somebody threatened to spil the beans?As for Federer up to the last few months I could happily dislike him for his arrogance, but I genuinely thought he was clean. Now I am feeling much as I used to feel when Nadal and Djokovic were playing, that it was not a competition between two tennis players, but a competition between two chemists. Federer is 34 heading towards 35 and I think that there is a good chance he will beat Djokovic. In 2013 he was showing the signs of ageing we would expect, then he gets a new "raquet" and seems back to his prime. I can't be the only one thinking that this is stinking to high heaven.
I'm certain starting to wonder. While I agree with whoever above said Fed hasn't necessarily shown great feats of endurance in individual matches, his sustained brilliance over such a long period and remarkable consistency at 34 with no apparent physical effects from all the matches and all the training is in itself a feat of endurance. Eric Ed and and others are having a field day with this, but they do have the right to hold up the mirror.
Good question Cynic....did something scare them all off?, a lot of "upsets" in USO this year and all that's left standing (on the women's side) are two unseeded over 30's.
And going into the final:Federer (Mayer, Darcis, Kohlschreiber, Isner, Gasquet, Wawrinka)Time: 588 minutes (9 hours, 48 minutes)Distance: 4.99 miles (26384.3 feet)Djokovic (Souza, Haider-Maurer , Seppi, Bautista Agut, Lopez, Cilic)Time: 737 minutes (12 hours 17 minutes)Distance: 7.70 miles (41146.6 feet)
The distance and the time just show that he should be fresh. It is not by choice that the other players staid longer on the court. It is due to their inability to dispatch their opponents in a shorter period of time. That level of aggressiveness and speed that Federer plays with is not matched by anyone on the court. No other player can initiate it or keep up with it.
I mean, he is playing super aggressive. But the matches do get shorter thanks to that. So you do spend more energy in the short run, but overall, it should be less. That is what is missing in these stats. Fact is, he didn't win almost anything significant in the last 3 years. And fact is, he can't match Djoko's stamina. Let's see tomorrow.
What does it exacly mean, he can't match Djoko's stamina??? Who can??? So lets state everyone is clean. Nadal started getting more fatigued when umpires started pressuring him into taking less time between serves. If you have to run 10000m and you run the first 1000 as if you are running 100m, it is normal you will get tired at a latter stage of the race. That is why everyone says Roger gets tired. Somehow, Federer is supposed to outlast a guy who has been capable of playing 6 straight hours and who is 6 years younger than him before he can be accused of doping? The reason why Fed fans seem to think they have a case is because they create their own parameters whenever it suits them and disregard the rest. Everyone except Djokovic look gassed against Federer. The only reason why Nadal has been able to outlast him some of the times is before the moon balls take a lot out of Federer. Federer has more endurance than anyone not named Djokovic and everyone knows Djokovic never truly gives any signs of playing with his own body. Federer is a machine. He is the closest thing to a robot the sport world has ever seen. I can sense a doper when I see one. Whether Federer loses tomorrow or not doesn't matter.
Well Serena Williams doesn't play long rallies too but it doesn't make her look unsuspicious. The fact that Federer is still fit (no sign of injury, no sign of fatigue, no sign of decline in movement) and able to hit Djokovic and other younger guys at the age of 34 is too good to be true. The result tmr won't change anything since he beat 6 guys younger than him easily to reach the final.
I think people have a misunderstanding of how dope can benefit you. It is not just stamina, but your speed and power. Certainly the Swiss doesn't depend on stamina as much as Djokovic does but they seem to me are always capable of overpowering Djokovic from baseline (see Wawrinka in RG final) even though they are older than Djokovic. Well we have a woman named Serena Williams who doesn't like long rallies and is capable of overpowering her opponents most of the time too despite her age.
For Serena, size is on her side. If she was smaller and framed the same way as her opponents, I would be suspicious. Look at Venus power at 35. You don't lose your strength till may be in your 50s. Your physical attributes degrade in your30 but your physical strength stays with you for a long time. The issue is the women don't want to use weight because they claim they want to look feminine. Well, I've got news for them. You can't stop feeding yourself so that you can be skinny and expect more strength out of it.
Even a retired Sampras didn't lose his strength when he played an exhibition against Federer. you don't lose your strength.
That's precisely why Serena is probably doping! Her frame is not natural for any woman. She may not be using stamina boosters like EPO, but probably steroids. Not to mention her facial features look masculine and even an incipient moustache can be seen sometimes, which suggests some sort of AAS could be in her body.Also, lifting weights won't change much your appearance, not even for a male. That's if you are natural. You might gain 20 lbs of pure muscle and that's it. Males who are true natural bodybuilders and are not lying never look big, unless they are fat.What makes muscles larger is testosterone, and women have on average 15-20 times less testosterone as males do, so at the most, they might gain 5 lbs of pure, dry muscle when they are young and that's a stretch.Lifting weights as a natural will mostly just aid with health and strength, but never as a big muscle builder.To put it in perspective, a young male in his 20s with superb genetics, 6'2", mightbe able to get to 185 lbs at 5% body fat absolutely shredded everywhere or 205 lbs at a lean 10% body fat. In reality, those people are not the norm at all and a guy at the same height with average genetics might just be able to be 175 lbs at a lean 10% body fat.Looking at Djokovic you can see how he stayed at roughly the same weight, but got leaner over the years, which suggests PED use, so not only his stamina is a give away. Getting lean completely natural will drain you of strength, stamina and overall well being until you reach your desired condition and you can eat more to maintain. Not to mention you will lose weight and the only way to stay at the same bodyweight and getting leaner is to bulk and then cut, which might work for the first 1-2 years of lifting and eating in a caloric surplus, but then you will only gain fat.Novak avoided all this tedious process and improved both his body composition and stamina.Federer's body is just average although he does look leaner lately, but without added muscle mass unlike Djokovic, so he might just be using EPO or any other endurance boosters.
Also, growth hormone could also be a great choice for a doper, used in low doses (unlike bodybuilders). It helps the athlete feel younger and recover much faster, allow him/her eat more and cut fat while gaining quality muscle mass.
Your statement about lifting weight not adding muscles may apply to whites, not to blacks. Your theories sound good but they are just pure abstraction and speculation. Serena is big naturally just like her mother. When you lift weight that way, you have muscles all over the place. People talk as if Serena looks like a body builder. Only her arms are muscular. I don't see other parts of her body being affected by the doping that you guys claim. Blacks are different from whites. I am sorry.Also Serena's frame not being natural to women is stuff white people talk about. You don't see blacks talking about it because they know their women. I saw the beginning of a silly youtube video comparing Serena's shape to another white player and saying she is built like a man. This might in the 16 century and i appreciate your audacity but you're wasting your time. To talk about things, you need to have the right reference. I can't say whites have a lot of hair because they use chemicals. i can't say they are light because they use chemicals. Their women usually don't have a big ass, and I can't say it is because they dope. Every race has their features and when you are presenting your case, you have to talk based on what you know about the race, not based on what you know about your race. You are the first one to say that Serena's facial features look masculine. you can ask all blacks on this earth and none of them would say Serena looks like a man. Women who have never exercised in their lives grow mustache and you stating that Serena grows mustache even though i can't confirm it just shows how little you know about life in general.I don't know how old you are when you are saying lifting weight won't your appearance, but don't keep your mind closed. you have a lot to learn.
To address your points, Eric Ed:1. Yes, black guys might have better genetics for building muscle in general, although not all of them are muscular.Lifting weights can change your appearance, as I said, an average healthy young man can add about 20 lbs of pure dry muscle (comparing shredded vs shredded before and after bodyweights and lean body mass, not just gaining 20 lbs of bodyweight while lifting and getting stronger thinking all of it is muscle. Anyone can gain weight but building muscle mass is not that easy). In reality, most of the muscle could be gained just eating enough and slowly gaining weight until you reach a healthy, strong bodyweight (for example 6'0", 180 lbs for a male) and putting your natural hormones to work, assuming you are a healthy male with a good amount of testosterone in your body. Add sports to that and you will be close to your genetic potential as far as muscle mass is concerned. That's for a fully matured male (around 20 years old) who has practiced sports from a young age. Lifting weights will add some extra muscle and strength, but hormones and nutrition is more important. Just dieting and getting leaner can change your appearance even if you don't lift weights. Women can't just gain much muscular weight due to their almost non existent testosterone, so they will just gain a ton of fat and water if they due what I just mentioned above. Not to mention estrogen is a fat making hormone...2. If Serena is big because of her mother, why is her sister Venus not as muscular as her if she has the same genetics? Even if Serena lifted weights and her sister didn't, it won't have much effect as far as muscle mass gain, since they are women and can't gain much muscle. She could definitely get much stronger from lifting, I'll give you that, but difference in muscle will be almost non existent.3. Of course she doesn't look like a bodybuilder. Not even close. But she does have more muscle than any woman. Her arms, back and neck look kinda thick and solid, somewhat lean, whereas most women are just small in those parts and softer. Her legs are big, but mostly because they have a lot of fat, cause after all she is a woman and women carry a lot of fat in their lower bodies and breasts, as is the case with Serena. She could just be using a steroid compound that converts to estrogen, keeping her legs and breasts soft. With other compounds she would be much harder all over. Yes, she isn't that big and it could maybe, just maybe be natural, but it certainly is enough to make people doubt.4. Black women have in general a bigger ass than white women, but that's largely due to a more pronounced tendency to store a large amount of fat there. All women carry fat in their butts, but black women more so.5. Her face might look feminine, but only with make up. Btw exercise doesn't make hairs grow, hormones do.6. I don't get how stating my personal opinion about Serena's facial features makes me know nothing about life in general. I just said what I thought. Sorry if I hurt your beloved idol. Sounds like you are a fanatic and are biased.
7. I am 20 years old and I have been training my whole body with weights for almost 3 years. I went from 150 lbs to 215 at roughly 5'11" in about 20 months. Probably gained 15-20 lbs of pure muscle. It changed my appearance, but mostly the diet did it. When I was heavy I looked big and soft and when I cut down I looked leaner than I was at the same weight. It was mostly due to having testosterone and eating enough to build muscle tissue. Lifting only played a small role there. It made me a loooot stronger.and healthier, but diet and hormones were more important in my transformation, as is the case with everyone.Even a healthy young male who eats well and enough and doesn't exercise will carry more muscle (and maybe even stronger) than a healthy young female who busts her ass 5 times a week lifting weights. The same applies to steroid users who don't exercise versus other males who aren't on steroids.Compare two 20 year olds, healthy males, both eating the same, one of them stays natural and trains religiously his whole body with weights and the other one takes 500 mg of testosterone propionate (just an example) and doesn't exercise at all. The juiced guy will get much bigger.Honest bodybuilders know this all too well.Hope I'm not bothering you too much ;)
"Black ppl don't dope becoz they are naturally strong"...well u have to see how many track and field black guys dope then...they dont need EPO of coz as there are not long distance runner, but they took steroids for sprinting.
Lol sprinters are doped to the gills. Black, whites, asians, everyone.
That's why ppl shouldn't only suspect those who can play long rallies in tennis. They should also suspect those who play with lots of power too. Playing short rallies with lots of power doesn't make one less a doper than those preferring long rallies.
Anonimouslayer: Venus is built like their father while Serena is built their mother and this is why Venus is tall and thin and Serena is shorter and bulky.
Serena's pretty muscular. http://i.perezhilton.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/serena-williams-fit-bod-at-beach-sexy__oPt.jpg
Anonymousslayer. As you said, you are 20 and some of your points make sense for your age. I never said exercise make hairs grow. I said women who never exercised and therefore who never had a need to dope can have a lot of mustache. CurlisOlympicGames: I have never said black people don't dope. I said they don't dope to compete against white people but to compete against other black people.
Federer's serving is what has sustained him through this summer's hard court season. If his serve is on and his back is healthy, he is virtually unbeatable. I don't see how doping can make someone an accurate server. But maybe there is a substance that can do that.
Lopi Lopi, we all know Federer doesn't dope.
We all saw how tired Federer was against Djokovic.
Just making sure we all know that Federer can't dope
He could still be using lower doses and he is a legend of the sport, so the ATP probably protects him in case he does.It was down to not converting break points, not being tired.Also, I don't get how no one mentipns the fact that Djokovic is already 28, an age where he should already show signs of declining, but he seems to be improving wtf? People act as if he is still so young, but that is not the case at all. Not to mention his physical condition seems to be improving still. By 28, Federer and Nadal were already declining. Also, I wouldn't be surprised ifNadal somehow manages to get back from the grave and win some Grand Slams and masters 1000. Of course, that would be a huge alert on him doping (again?).
I was just messing with Lopi Lopi. it was sarcasm
Lol at lopi. He (among other fans) reminded me of...http://www.realclearsports.com/blog/2015/09/uncomfortable_truth_about_hating_djokovic.htmlBy the way, some dude is talking to a journalist about doping on twitter. Evasive as always:https://twitter.com/BenRothenberg/status/644684278991876097
"Uncomfortable truth about hating Djokovic?" What is this fan with typewriter nonsense? Take it back to the Djokovic fan site/Tennis forum it came from where they have the other "religious" articles. It's not exactly adding anything to "Tennis has a Steroid Problem" is it?
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